Hemp Plastic Packaging: The Promise Of Hemp Plastic With Sana Packaging

Speaker 0 00:00:00 I'm Matt balm. And this is the ministry of hemp podcast brought to you by ministry of hemp.com. America's leading advocate for hemp and hemp education. I never went to grad school. I had a lot of friends that did though, and it was a nightmare. It was super difficult. And they were literally living on a shoestring budget while working as hard as he possibly could to hopefully increase their chances of getting a job afterwards. Now imagine that you finished grad school and you had a project you believed in so much that you said the easy thing to do would be to go and find a job, but instead we should make a job. And that is exactly what my guests, Ron <inaudible> Smith and James Eichner did. Ron is the CEO and James is the CSO of Santa packaging. Santa packaging is an up-and-coming hemp plastic packaging company. They had an idea in grad school and it was centered around cannabis packaging. And the question, why is it all in single use plastic? Speaker 0 00:01:20 There's plenty of industries out there that are trying to be more environmentally friendly, but it seems like the cannabis industry is intensely aware of their impact on the environment and what they can do to lessen that impact. So when these two grad students started approaching smoke shops in their area saying, Hey, instead of putting everything in plastic, what if we put it in hemp plastic? Or what if we put it in reclaimed plastic and they built a customer base, and now they've got a successful business. I had a fantastic conversation with these guys that I think you're really going to enjoy. I know we've talked a lot about him, plastic on the show recently, but this was a chance to talk to two people about how they got a business like this off the ground. And they were completely open and honest and a lot of fun to talk to. This is my conversation with Ron <inaudible> Smith and James Eichner of Santa packaging. So let's start at the beginning. You guys met in college grad school, grad school. Okay. We met in grad school. And what were you both going to grad school for? At the time Speaker 1 00:02:28 We were pursuing our MBAs Speaker 0 00:02:30 At CU Boulder. Speaker 1 00:02:32 And we were, we're both, Speaker 0 00:02:34 It's taking a lot of classes together and at some point you're like, you know what, there's too much single use plastic in this world. Like, how does this come up? How does this even start? It's the kind of thing where like, you're both look kind of like ski bums to me, no offense, but I know I do happen to have been skiing today. How do you get in the idea that not only do I want to work on a project where maybe we incorporate into plastic, but Speaker 2 00:03:00 We should start a company to, how does this happen? Speaker 3 00:03:04 Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly I think James and I both say it comes from being disgruntled consumers, right? Both in Colorado since legalization happened, um, and consuming cannabis and, you know, just personal guilt, honestly, like if this is something that w you know, I'm going to be consuming, and it's just another, another area of waste that I think, you know, James and I are, we're both really fortunate to be in the time, you know, at school when we were, and, you know, just able to have the space to start a business. Right. And coming out of grad school, it's either, you know, go find a job or, you know, start a job, one of the other, for sure. So the, uh, start something sounded a little, little more, uh, intriguing, I guess Speaker 2 00:03:48 It's like a college project. Is that right, James? Speaker 3 00:03:51 Yeah. So we were, we were in a sustainable venturing class together and we'd taken a bite. You know, we were both focusing our studies on primarily sustainability and entrepreneurship. So, you know, we basically ended up in all the same classes together. And this was the first semester of our last year. Uh, and Ron approached me and asked if I wanted to work on this project with him. And Ron hit the nail on the head by saying that at the time, it, it was like, Hey, uh, I know you're disgruntled about cannabis packaging as well. Um, do you think this sounds like a fun idea for a class project and at the time it was really just an exploration, um, to see what might be out there. Material-wise business model wise, neither of us had a background in packaging or anything like that. Um, so, you know, it really was, uh, I don't know, kind of hap happenstance. Speaker 2 00:04:51 So that's my next question. You, neither of you have a background in packaging, did either of you have a background in cannabis other than, you know, recreational cannabis or Speaker 3 00:05:03 Not beyond the level of like, you know, small time college slanging eighths for some extra light pocket change. They're really beyond, beyond that. No, no experience in the cannabis industry formally. Um, I came from the social and environmental justice sectors, uh, before grad school. Uh, Ron came from the liquor industry. I think we're both, uh, you know, there's, there's a few types of, they like to say that there's a few types of MBA students. There's people who are there to enhance their careers. There's people who are there to change their careers. Uh, and then there's folks like Ron and I who just, you know, really needed some direction. And, you know, we both really love being students. And I think we, we were both, we didn't know each other beforehand, but I think were just in similar Speaker 4 00:05:58 Positions of like, you know, it's our mid twenties. We've had a few years after college having fun and now we really need to find some meaningful direction. And I think that's what, ultimately both drew us back to school. Speaker 0 00:06:12 So what, what year was this when this project started? Because now from what I've heard and what I've seen and talked to other people, even in the last five years, there's been a lot more of the hemp that you would need to, you know, make industrial, you know, packaging or even Roper, cloth and stuff like that. But literally only in the last five years before that it was a complete desert from what I understand. And even now it's still not real easy. So w what year, what did it look like when you started and what year was that? Speaker 4 00:06:46 Yes, we got started in 2016. I remember I went to for grad school, you know, like our, our class, uh, advisor was like, Hey, you need to go to, you know, get more involved in something that you're interested in. And there is a head conference, like, what are you doing in your life Speaker 0 00:07:01 Kid? Come on, Speaker 4 00:07:05 There's a hub conference up in Loveland. And I was like, Oh, I like, that sounds interesting enough to Nate in Loveland. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't NOCO, it was like a, like a round table. And then like, kind of like, it was, yeah, it was, it was just probably 50 to 70 people kind of just that the governor Polis was there just kind of gives 20 sixteens. That him stuff was just kind of getting off the ground. And I was there and I was kind of looking around and I was just like, seems like, you know, I'm in the right place, right time to do something with this stuff it's happening. Um, why not, you know, being on the ground level. And it just, you know, coincides, it is really useful for a lot of things. And so, um, why not try and make some packaging out of it Speaker 0 00:07:47 At that time CBD was booming and really starting to take off. Why didn't you guys try and jump in on that? I'm not trying to dissuade you anyway. I'm just curious and thinking process because I've interviewed so many people, they were like, I was growing hemp. I started making CBD doing the CBD to, you know, not as many people have decided to go the industrial route. And I'm just curious, why not go into CBD? Speaker 4 00:08:10 No, I think for us, it was honestly like if were going to start a business, start a business, that's a problem. Right. And not saying that CBD isn't fixing problems, it is, but for us, this was a problem that we were passionate about. So, um, kind of, you know, let the, let the passion drive, drive the ship. I think for, for us in that one. And, you know, there's definitely been times where it's like, Oh, CBD, you know, seems to be an easier path to profitability than what we have going on, but, you know, same time, you know, I think James probably feels the same way, but we we're, we're stoked on what we're doing. Yeah. And I think starting with, you know, the initial problem that we set out to explore was why is cannabis packaging? And, you know, by extension, uh, been CBD product packaging, why is it the way it is? Why are people using the materials that they're using? Um, what's affecting that. And, and so we kind of started from the packaging side of things and then got into, um, the hemp side in terms of learning about it as a potential material for packaging, as opposed to coming to the hemp plant and then trying to figure out, okay, well, what do we do with it? We already kind of had that intended use in mind. And, uh, luckily it worked out Speaker 2 00:09:31 James, it didn't hurt that you came from an environmental law background as well. I'm sure. No, no, no. Speaker 4 00:09:36 Uh non-profit Speaker 2 00:09:38 Oh, even environmental nonprofit. So you, when you were making the big bucks in the environmental yeah. That was really, really rolling. And there you go. All right. It's all coming together now. So we're still really rolling. Oh, I can tell just by the way, you should see where these guys live. It's a, it's palatial, it's an audio podcast, so they can't see it. But so you do the project, you find out the w this can work. We can actually make this happen. What happens next? Then you're just like, screw it, let's start a company. So Ron, did we have a 3d printed prototype Speaker 4 00:10:15 By the end of that semester of, by the class? That was, I think the, we were doing the net net venture challenge along with it. Right. Because there's some cash cash prize involved in that. And so, you know, I think kind of coinciding Speaker 2 00:10:30 With the one class, Speaker 4 00:10:32 You have coincided with one classroom and we were in another class project and we were doing in that venture challenge. It's got, I mean, like with any, like when you're in school, right? Like there's the most resources around you you're going to have. Right. So we were able to kind of rely on people much smarter than us, and, you know, had skill sets in areas that we didn't, um, to help us along. So, yeah, we had a prototype made kind of, you know, basically for the, uh, for the class project, fortunately, a company was making 3d principal, hemp plastics to make a hemp prototype packaging product. Wasn't too, too far of a stretch. And I had an idea of what kind of design would have some, some sort of locking mechanism in it and stuff. And we tried out some stuff. And so, yeah, at the end of the class, we, we did have a prototype. Tell me about the prototype. What was it? Uh, it was our first, basically a pretty similar to what our first product is honestly like, you know, we'd have, um, I don't have any hair right here to show you, but you know, there, um, it's our box that you see on our website basically. And, you know, we sat down with, uh, engineering student who knew Kachin and was able to sketch something out that, you know, the next step. All right. Speaker 2 00:11:42 The math, if you will. Yeah. Speaker 4 00:11:46 Yeah. Shout out to SWAT Neil Kumar for being our first product designer. That's Speaker 2 00:11:51 Awesome. So what you said you used a 3d printer, so you're using like this, these are the ones that use, like the hemp plastic that also has regular plastic in it as well, right? Speaker 4 00:12:03 Yeah. So it's actually a really similar formulation to what we're using currently because, um, PLA, which is the plant base polymer typically comes from corn or sugarcane feed stock has a lower melting temperature than a traditional, uh, petroleum based plastic. And so with that lower melting Tam, um, it's a hemp and corn based composite basically. Um, so really similar to what we, what we use now. And that was kind of the, Hey, this is a step in that direction. You know, our products, we want to make them a hundred percent plant based. And so, um, this was a pathway towards that. Speaker 2 00:12:41 Yeah. That's one of the things like I talked to some people about hemp plastics about the PLS, especially while they do break down better, they can leave micro-plastics and stuff like that. Where, so you've moved now to a full plant based, is that correct? Speaker 4 00:12:57 Yeah. So it's a, it's a bio composite 30% have 30% PLA still dealing with that issue at all. You know, any polymer is gonna leave behind microplastics. It just matters what happens to it, how they're digested, where they're digested, you know, and that's what we're we as a company coming a long way from four years ago, have, you know, James and I have learned so much about the actual systems, uh, within the, the waste space. And so, you know, what actually happens to a product afterwards is the stuff that we would like to see more of, right. Speaker 2 00:13:29 Is it compostable what you're dealing with? Speaker 4 00:13:32 So not con not certified compostable, we use compostable, uh, inputs, but due to the wall thickness of our product, we don't actually meet the breakdown timeframe fair enough, uh, uh, 90 days, um, for, for that. And so, you know, this is basically our first product to market and we know that there's so much more that we can do moving forward. Um, and so that's just what we're currently working on that. So this happens, Speaker 2 00:13:59 Let's talk about your, your current product. Uh, James, tell me about what you guys have going on right now. Speaker 3 00:14:05 Well, no, we went, we went through canopy Boulder, um, an accelerator in Boulder and that's how we got our first bit of funding. And Ron put in some of his, his, you know, some of his personal money as well. And that's kind of what got us off to the races. And we S you know, Sonic packaging became a full-time endeavor for us. Uh, really the second we finished school and, uh, we finished school and the accelerator in the span of the same week, I think, and had a little bit of money in the bank for the company. And, you know, just, just like how the class project went well. So we decided to apply to an accelerator. Collarator went well. So we decided to continue with the project after the accelerator and things kept slowly falling into place, but it really, it took us, um, about a full year after we finished the accelerator to get our first real working prototypes, uh, not just done, but child-resistant certified and then building out a production scale mold. Speaker 3 00:15:17 Uh, and then we launched a pilot program in the summer of 2018 with around 20 pilot customers and went through a six months learning period with them. Uh, you know, cause beyond just making a product, you know, a big part of packaging is, you know, the customer service that you're providing to folks. So yeah, learning the ins and outs of how to communicate with our manufacturing partners, our supplier partners, how to communicate with our customers, how to make sure that things show up on time, kind of all those, all that behind the scenes operational stuff, uh, was kind of hammered out in this six month customer learning period, along with just, uh, ramping up our production and making sure that we can truly, you know, start mass producing something made out of a hemp bio composite and that it was in 2019, beginning of 2019 that we really opened our doors up for sales. And now we're up to, you know, started 2019 with two products and 20 customers now, you know, coming to the end of 2020, we're up to seven products. One which we just launched, uh, earlier this week, uh, soon to be eight, we're going to launch our eighth product just before the end of the year. And we're up to a little over 370 customers. Now. That's all, Frazy how far we've come. Speaker 0 00:16:44 So you guys, rather than, you know, the other Porsche mucks that had to get out of grad school and go find work, you're like, let's just make a job. We'll make our own damn job. And w which is harder. Sure. But you did it tell me about the, the most recent, like your, your first customers. I'm sorry. Tell me what your first customers like the people that when you came out, like those first 20 people, what did you guys do? Did you just like show up places and be like, see this box, this box has made, I am, it's not cardboard, it's not plastic. Like, what was that like? Who were they? Speaker 3 00:17:18 It was a lot of door to door. Speaker 0 00:17:19 Yeah. Really like, literally like, hello, my name is Ron and I'm James. And we're here to talk to you about Santa Fe. Speaker 3 00:17:28 Like w when we look back on it, now, it is kind of like, you know, I would say very difficult to do what we did in any other industry. Right? Like the cannabis industry just didn't going and like, you know, you could just kind of walk into a dispensary and be like, Hey, I have, we're making him packaging. Right. And the people were like, it would get like an IRAs and maybe interested in it. We didn't have, you know, the product to sell at the time. So it's very much like, you know, when you're going through the startup phase, you're fundraising, you're trying to basically convince, you know, customers, but then you're trying to give its investors and such that someone's gonna actually buy this product. Right. Right. Speaker 2 00:18:01 Well, you're not just convincing them that like, Hey, you should buy this product. You're also like having to convince them, like, you should spend a little more money on your packaging for a more responsible product. Right? Speaker 3 00:18:14 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a tough thing, right. To go into a business and tell them, Hey, you know, you need to spend more money on product that yeah. It's like, it's, it's a, it's a tough conversation. And I think that was, um, you know, for us at the beginning, we really had to have that passion, like, you know, just button up the shirt and go and knock on as many doors as possible and be like, Hey, uh, is this interesting to you? Would you, would you buy this? Speaker 2 00:18:39 It probably wouldn't work in any other industry. It's not like you can walk into like, you know, Ford and be like, Hey, instead of using all that plastic in your car, you know, but the cannabis industry, I can see them being like, wait a minute. Yeah. Why are we putting this stuff in plastic or cardboard or a garbage, you know, when you're supposed to be a little more ecologically friendly, I would guess in that industry, Speaker 3 00:19:04 We really owe so much to those early pilot customers. Because when we, when we first approached all of them, you know, it was similar. We were approaching investors, we were approaching potential customers. And with everyone, it was selling them on a hope and a dream with investors. It was, if you, if you give us money, we will make this. And we're confident that we'll be able to sell it for this amount. And it will be a good use of your money to invest at us who, by the way, have never done any of that Speaker 2 00:19:34 Two grad students <inaudible> Speaker 3 00:19:37 With these potential customers, it was approaching folks and saying, here's a prototype. If we're able to mass produce this four to six months from now, will you, you know, will you commit to being a pilot customer with us? And again, selling someone on a hope and a dream and something that doesn't physically exist yet. And as you're trying to, you know, connect the dots of getting money in, you know, investors want to see that you have, uh, potential customers lined up potential customers want to see that you actually have a product to sell. And so you're, you're trying to line up all of these things. And, you know, I'm trying to think of who some of those early customers are. I know that there's shout out to Smokey's four 20 and Fort Collins there. Yeah. Our first, first customer. So yes, they'll have that first check. Speaker 2 00:20:33 It's amazing to walk into Smokey's and Fort Collins and be like, Hey bros, we should all be nicer to the earth. Right. And they're like, yeah, bro. You know, like, well, check this out. So what were the investors like? That's gotta be a whole different shebang there. I mean, when you start talking to money, guys, what were they like? Who were your first investors? I mean, I know Ron, you had to throw some of your money in there. I hope you got it back. It seems like you probably did it by this point. We're working on that, working on it. What were your, what were, what was it like approaching investors with this idea? Speaker 4 00:21:06 You know, I think like first being able to go, you know, James and I being, you know, two, two guys leaving grad school, you hadn't done this before. Um, being able to go into a business business accelerator, like canopy Boulder that's was focused on the, in the cannabis industry and kind of had, yeah, had the, a framework set up for us as far as like, you know, this is how you will approach, this is how you can approach these, these people. And so I think that was super useful for us. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, Jane and I would just, it's kind of one of those things you gotta learn on the fly, right? Like your whole, uh, you're just kind of putting yourself out there, right? Like you don't know how you're going to be received by these people. There's a lot of, um, you know, perceived, uh, critiquing going on around your business model, how you're presenting it, you know, early on a lot of unsolicited advice that you just got to kind of I'm sure take in, Speaker 2 00:22:02 You can't wear that. You're going to ask for money dressed like that. Speaker 3 00:22:07 Ron Ron's name was actually changed from Ronnie to Ron by potential investors, uniformly. Believe it. So when I met, when I met Ron, he, he went by Ronnie and he's, he's gone by Ronnie, his whole life friend calls him Ronnie let's friends call him Ronnie. And we just started interacting with these potential investors. And you know, they, they skew male. They skew a little older. Speaker 2 00:22:38 You're kidding. Yeah. Let me get a little kind of white too. Pretty pasty pasty. I think I know what you're talking about now. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:22:47 And literally overnight, Ronnie became Ron because you know, he'd just introduced himself. Hi, my name's Ronnie. And they'd be like, nice to meet you, Ron. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:22:57 Yeah. That's a kid's name. I'm not going to call you that. All right. Anyway. Speaker 4 00:23:01 Yeah, exactly what I heard. That's a, that's a child demand. You get that enough times. You're like, all right, now we're trying to make good money here. See if that works. Speaker 3 00:23:11 But to just about investors again, real quick though, it's similar to those early customers where it's, you know, you, you get really lucky and you find these handful of people that believe in what you're doing. Like Smokey's, uh, four 20 and Fort Collins or Bailey and Murphy's and Oregon. They were another early one. We had a few early investors as well. Um, I don't want to name names, but there's one individual who he's placed capital with us a few times in a few different seed rounds that done and not huge sums, but he's been the first money in, on each of those rounds. And that counts. He's never fundraised before the, the, that first money in is the hardest, because no one wants to be the Speaker 2 00:24:00 Everybody's waiting. If somebody got their money, Speaker 3 00:24:03 People around them to be like, Hey, this is a good idea. We're all doing this. Right? So that first person has really taken a big leap. And this person did that for us twice. And it's not the most money we've ever gotten, but it's some of the most important money we've ever gotten. Speaker 2 00:24:19 Yeah. I would argue a cat's way more just because somebody else sees, Oh, I'm not the only idiot that's going throw money at this. Someone else did it for us, so. Okay. Speaker 4 00:24:29 And you know, even more than that, like the confidence boost that it gives you totally from a fundraising standpoint, right? Like you're kinda, you know, it's like when you go fishing, right? Like you, you don't, you might not know that there's any fish in there. So you're just like, but the second you get a bite, you're like, all right, right. This is worthwhile. Right. You know, you got, you got a chance. Speaker 2 00:24:47 Yeah. That back to what we were talking about, going in and talking to these investors, you guys had never done it before, so you don't know the wrong way to do it, let alone the right way. So let's just do it. Right. Yeah. That's great. So you go from 20 customers to 300 customers, you said you just unveiled a new product last week. What was that? Speaker 3 00:25:07 That was a, uh, a V two or I don't know, V2 is the right word, but it's a second iteration of our reclaimed ocean plastic pre-roll tube. So the first iteration that we did was in the same, uh, production scale mold, uh, as our bio opposite pre-roll tube. So we knew, uh, when we launched the, uh, you know, cause it was an easy using the same mold for both, uh, products was an easy way to, you know, have a new product, a new material, get something else to market. But we knew from the get-go that down the road, we would be able to, uh, lighten, lighten the amount of material used, uh, just because the, the wall thickness is, are a little thicker than necessary for the reclaimed ocean plastic material, because they were designed to run this bio composite. So we've, you know, this has been a long time coming for us and we're really excited about this, uh, product. So it's our first pop top design. Um, our previous products had, uh, there were two piece molds, meaning that the lid of the pre-roll tube was it's a whole separate piece. Uh, and again, the original design was made to work with the hemp bio composite. So now we've, we've moved over to a pop-top for the reclaimed ocean plastic. We're able to reduce our material use by 25%, uh, while also increasing the length of the pre-roll tube from 110 millimeters to hundred and 16 Speaker 4 00:26:44 Millimeters, and also moving into a larger production scale mold. All of that combined also allowed us to drop our price by 30% compared to, you know, our previous reclaim notion plastic pre-roll tube. So it's a huge step forward for us, and we hope it'll be a real game changer, uh, just because it's, it's a really common form factor. And because it's that much more price competitive, we really hope that it's a no brainer for folks that perhaps earlier were a little scared off by, you know, the inevitable price premium that comes with sustainability. Speaker 0 00:27:29 So potentially stupid question, where does one go to pick up ocean reclaimed plastic? I mean, coming from Nebraska, I would know where to start, but are you hooked up with a group that is literally pulling plastic out of the ocean? Or is it, are there suppliers? I have no clue how this works. Speaker 4 00:27:52 Yeah. So we're working, uh, with a, uh, network called the ocean works and they are basically, uh, have a network of processor, cleaners, and sorters that they work with, um, to go out and certify this material. So, you know, ocean plastic, like any other products, recycled product, there's a, you know, there's the varying levels and degrees of the quality, right. And all of that. Right. So beyond just saying, you know, it's ocean plastic, you know, there's certain grades of material that we need certain type of material. We have some, uh, needs around cleanliness, so FDA approved material. Um, and so making sure that that is all up to snuff and basically, um, you know, that our, our S our manufacturers are getting what we say it is, and the customer is getting what we say it is. Um, just, uh, you know, a way that we can kind of ensure, ensure the quality of the product. Speaker 0 00:28:43 I assume it's just very similar to recycling plastic more or less you're, you're melting it down, you're pouring it into your mold and it cools. And it, Speaker 4 00:28:55 I mean, is it more or less work than just bringing in new plastic? Yeah. So I think, I think the, you know, not necessarily more or less work, like from a theoretic level you're correct. Right. Like materials being extruded into a mold. Right. Um, but the biggest problem is like the, the quality of the material. Right. So, yeah, you may have, um, you know, with Virgin material designed to perform a very specific way, if the recycled content or reclaim content has any variability in it that variability might show up in the part. So sure. You know, this is one of the big reasons why you don't see a lot of recycled and reclaimed material used amongst, you know, major consumer products because, um, in the traditional world where price is everything, you know, if you're going to, let's just say two out of every 1000 units are, have, have a blemish or something. Right, right. That might be enough to tip the scale, to say, let's work with Virgin material that oftentimes it's going to be less expensive. Speaker 2 00:29:52 Yeah. That's the nightmare of recycling, right. Because my wife and I recycle my neighbors all recycled, and we're sending all this plastic to be recycled and you don't have major plastic corporations using recycled plastics for just that reason. Speaker 4 00:30:06 This is the big thing with it, right. Like if we're going to recycle, we have to close that loop the best we can. So the backend of that is that companies are going to be working with this material. They're going to pay more for it. They're going to deal with the, um, you know, inconsistencies that could show up. Um, but that's, that's kind of what we're doing as a company, right? Like this idea of producer responsibility versus consumer responsibility, right? Like both of those have to work together. The consumer has to recycle the producer has to work with the material that has been recycled. Speaker 2 00:30:34 Well, and let's be real. I'm not going to go to the grocery store to pick up my detergent or something and be like, Oh, well that, bottle's not as orange as I remember. I, I think I'll buy the competition again. No, and nobody cares. It's just, it's preposterous. So, yeah, but we got off subject a little bit there. I think it's amazing what you're doing. Don't get me wrong, but what is next for Santa packaging? Where do we go from here? Speaker 4 00:31:00 I mean, you don't have to like Speaker 2 00:31:00 Divulge secrets or anything, but the big trade secrets, if you want to break some news, Speaker 4 00:31:09 I'd say, you know, w we were, we've always been mission driven, but we, when we started the company, we were very focused on trying to tap into innovative material types and more sustainable material types. But the big thing that we've learned over the last, what is it? Four years, three or four years, is that at materials and material innovation are really just one piece of the puzzle. Yeah. So in terms of where Sana packaging is going, we ultimately view ourselves as material agnostic, meaning we always want to be able to tap into what we believe to be the most sustainable and best material available for the use cases that we're trying to use it for. And the other big piece of the puzzle is our waste management infrastructure and all, and not just waste management infrastructure, but all the other infrastructure around packaging and in our case specifically cannabis packaging. So when we think of what's next for us, it's how do we, how do we affect that larger systemic change that needs to happen within the cannabis industry and the waste management infrastructure that, uh, AIDS the cannabis industry, and how do we change? How do we shift Speaker 3 00:32:40 Cannabis packaging from a linear economic model where it goes, take, make, dispose to a circular economic model where at the end of a product's useful life, you're recovering it as much as possible reusing materials as much as possible regenerating natural systems, right? And it's, that's what's next is, is how to figure out, um, how to make truly circular cannabis packaging. Because every step of the way we're, we're making incremental change towards it and moving toward circularity. Uh, but the big, the big question is how are we going to make that ultimate leap and put those pieces into place and leverage our position in the industry to try and make that happen. Speaker 0 00:33:30 And once you build that model, I mean, it's easy people here will, will, they're doing in the cannabis industry, whatever. But once you build that model and show, you can do it in this industry. There is no reason why you can't apply that across the board to any industry. There's no reason why once you get a model like that working, we can't go into Walmart and buy, you know, groceries in a bag made of hemp plastic, or something, or reclaimed pastiche, or, you know, get your food from McDonald's in a responsible package. I mean, that's ultimately where this goes. I'm not saying go shop at Walmart, go shop at McDonald's, but that's, it's models like these when you can scale up and change the frigging world. And I think it's amazing what you guys are doing, not bad for a couple of stoner, you know, bombs from college. They came up with a project, you know, nicely done for a couple of grad students. You know, I will have links to Santa packaging and more about Ron and James in the notes for this episode. Speaking of which here at the ministry of hemp, we believe that a more accessible world is a better world for all. So you will find a full written transcript for this episode in the show notes as well. Speaker 5 00:34:48 <inaudible> Speaker 0 00:34:57 Thanks again for hanging out with me for another episode, I hope you learned something and you might have questions about what you heard or where you went to have questions about something you heard on another episode, or maybe you just have questions. Call me, let's talk about it. (402) 819-6417 is the number to call and you can leave your message. And we will answer your questions right here on the show. We do QA shows where I bring in other people that worked for ministry of hemp.com. My buddy kit, he's the editor in chief Deseret, our videographer, and sometimes drew our brand manager all show up. It's a great time. And we love to answer your questions. You can also shoot me an email with an MP3 or just a question to [email protected]. Speaking of ministry of hemp.com, head over there and check out our review of a CBD honey, put out by one of our favorite brands. Speaker 0 00:35:48 Populum they have a delicious CBD raw honey. We've also got your CBD gift guide for Christmas. It's coming down to the wire. So if you're going shopping, you're going to want to get it done. Now, check out our CBD gift guide. And we have a great guest post about wholesale hemp flour, and about getting into the CBD business. If you're interested in that. And if you like the content on this show and the stuff that we put up on our site, the best way you can help us is to head to Patrion backslash ministry of hemp and become a ministry of hemp insider. Any Mt. You give, makes you an insider and get you access to podcast extras to early articles and all kinds of extra stuff that we put up on our site and on our show, but more important than that, it helps us to bring hemp education to people that want to hear it and needs to hear it. We're trying to change the world here. Folks. We need your help go to Patrion. Backslash ministry of hemp become a ministry of hemp, insider that about does it for me. And I like to get out of here the same way every week by saying, remember to take care of yourself, take care of others and make good decisions way at this map bomb or the ministry of hemp podcast signing off Speaker 5 00:37:00 <inaudible>.